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Full Video Transcript

It’s pretty [music] hard, I think, for high school kids right now because their dreams are being crushed by the transfer portal and their dreams are being crushed by NIL deals and international [music] athletes. And I don’t even know if these college coaches would say this is the best thing for the sport, but they do have a job and that’s [music] their job’s to win and they got to get a paycheck. Um, so I get I get it, but at the same time, it’s heartbreaking for me to have kids who [music] uh graduate and don’t go on to run in college because they won’t lower their standards [music] and expectations. And I think the message for like a current high school athlete is like you got to go where you wanted, right?

And if you’re not getting responses [music] from coaches, like no response is a response. They don’t want you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was coach Kelly Christensen, head coach of Naiwat High School based out of Boulder, Colorado. I’ve had him on the podcast once after his boys team won NXN last year.

And I had to get him back on the podcast again after his boys team again won NXN. This time in a meet record of just 61 points. remarkable result, remarkable program that continues to push the boundaries of success and dominance in high school cross [music] country. Today, we break down a lot of the the insights of what it takes to go backto back, getting your program to a place where they can even achieve something like making NXN, much less winning it, much less winning it twice.

We talk about Coach Kelly’s perspective on some of the changes in the NCAA from NIL to international transfers to roster limits. We also talk about the future of the sport, how it affects the high school athlete. We talk about what it took to win back-to-back meets and the pressure and expectation. We talk about the attributes that the sport gives the next generation and so many other things.

I always love my conversations with Coach Kelly. Uh he’s a great man, great coach, and affects the lives of so many. So, Coach Kelly, if you’re listening to this, always appreciate you, man. Keep crushing it.

And if you’re listening here, share the podcast with a friend. That’s the easiest way in which we can grow. Give us a fivestar view. takes next to no time.

And make sure you’re following the podcast so you never miss another conversation. I hope you all are having an amazing holiday season. I hope the podcast can accompany you on some good runs. I hope you’re having some good time with loved ones, family, whoever it might be.

And uh enjoy this conversation with a man who is redefining success in the sport of running, Mr. Coach Kelly Christensen. Ladies and gentlemen, the champion is back on the podcast. Uh last year he came on the podcast after his boys team won the Nike Cross Nationals team race.

This year they won it again back to back as they say. They said it was luck till they did it again. Uh no one said that but uh that’s a song lyric that I like to say when people go back to back. This time with a meet record 61 points and I’m I’m here sporting my best Nat Green uh to celebrate with the man across from me who made it happen.

Coach Kelly. Coach, how you doing this morning? Doing great. I can’t say that I’m the champion though and I watch the champion so I just get to be the man the face but uh those kids ran the race and and they’re the ones that get the glory.

So what’s the difference in celebration last year when you do it for the first time versus second year? Uh man I I think it was harder for the the boys like our girls got second and there was more joy and more celebration from our girls. I don’t know if it was just like a relief, you know, like to not have lost, you know, rather than like a celebration of of the feat that they had, which is very very hard. Like, um, there were still hugs and tears and joy.

Um, but it was it was very I don’t know if they were just being respectful and trying to be um humble. Uh, but yeah, I feel like it took him a while. Like I think immediately uh you know we were relieved, we were happy, we were crying and I think whenever they got in front of everyone, they just didn’t really know what to do. So I would say if if if we ever getting a chance to uh get on top of that podium again, I’m going to I’m going to ask the boys to practice their uh celebration dance kind of like all the pro- NFL players do.

you know, you get that turnover, you got to run to the end zone, you got to do your little pose in front of the camera. Um, so maybe that’s my fault, like not not reminding them to to dance and celebrate, but the but the girls did. So, um, they they did it for him. It’s funny you bring up the point that the girls who play second were almost more happy than the the guys who won because I had a conversation yesterday, and this is a shameless plug, about a little over half a year ago.

Um, I hired a good friend, mentor, first ever podcast guest, uh, Alex Osber. He’s the assistant coach with, um, whatever they call the Bman Track Club now. And, uh, he started writing this newsletter for me. It’s linked in all the show notes of every episode.

But, he he recently wrote a piece and we were talking about it yesterday, breaking it down. And it’s it’s titled When Winning Stops Feeling Good: How Anticipation, Dopamine, and Expectations Shape the Emotional Arc of Performance. and he takes me through this story where um I want to I’m probably going to get some of the places wrong, but his junior year he was going into the regional meet as kind of like a outside shot to make the meet and to this day or at least looking back that’s one of the most like euphoric days of his life when he made the meet. Um I think he placed third in his region and then he went on to place 10th and then his senior year he came back into the region.

Everyone expected him to win. He won. he ran way faster than he did the year before. But yet that feeling was nowhere near what it was his junior year.

And then at nationals he ended up placing I want to say a place or two better in that same feeling. It wasn’t the same as his junior year. And so he writes about, you know, basically how anticipation always wins and the the curse of being a winner where it’s this expectation. It’s the only acceptable outcome because anything worse than what you did last time is is considered a failure.

So for you, what was the verbiage going into the race for your boys of, hey, we’re in high school. It’s not the end all be all if we don’t win. It’d be great to win, but it’s not a failure if we don’t win. Yeah.

I mean, we they we constantly preach that, you know, like with our kids, like uh our coaching staff, you know, we we match their vibe, we match their goals. Uh they constantly know the result isn’t our why. Um and we encourage, you know, failure and we encourage uh them to to find who they are as an athlete and like we got their back no matter what. So, I mean that message is constantly sent to them.

Um, and more than more than anything, it’s demonstrated through our actions when things don’t go well. Like, so I think they just feel comfortable knowing like it’s just a race. It’s supposed to be the funnest thing we do, right? Like, it’s racing is the celebration of all the hard work that they do.

Um, and that’s that’s the message we continue on repeat. And they probably I don’t know if they hear it all the time, but um the boys know and the girls knew that like just go out there, be who you were all year long, and if it’s not enough, like that’s okay because they just compete, man. And it’s it’s fun to watch. when when you have when you’re a coach or when you’re watching sports and athletics and you see no matter the sport, when you see someone out there just giving it their all and naturally enjoying it and competing their tails off, like it’s all you can expect and and that’s exactly what happened.

So, um I think they know that like we’re going to be all right if we if we don’t win. Um it’s not going to define who they are. This is like the the NXN experience itself is is the party. It’s the dance.

And we kind of told that to our kids like, “Hey, we’re going to the big dance. So when the gun goes off, don’t forget to get on the dance floor.” You know, like so they got on the dance floor and they competed and and it was great. So we we didn’t talk about results. We just talked about how are we going to execute?

Like what’s it look like in the morning going to the race course? What are we going to do the 90 minutes before? How does the intro um and all the media affect their warm-up, right? Like um what adjustments do we need to make?

Let’s get down to the starting line uh without like a rush or a panic. So, it was more just execution, less about the result. And then they ran great. What for you do you do to make sure your teams are going into the meet levelheaded and not too over their head?

And what I mean by that is NXN, as you said, is a big dance and there’s so much excitement around it. It’s a lot of kids like, you know, Dream Race. This is more so an individual conversation rather than team, but I’d be curious to get your perspective on the team side of things. I’ll talk to individuals who are seniors who are who are going in trying to win it and they’ll say, “Last year I placed well, but I was kind of lost in the sauce of, oh, I made NXN and this is exciting.” And then the second year they’re there to get to get the job done.

And I feel like these these big high school meets, you know, Nike Associated, coolest gear, buffet meals, cool hotel with banners, you know, you it can be very easy to take yourself out of the mindset that got you to the meat itself. So, what was some of the verbiage you used with your team to enjoy the moment and the experience, but not necessarily view it as a three-day play date by Nike and more so as a a race and the celebration comes with it? Yeah, I think like it I don’t know if it was intentional or not, but in all our big races this year, like we we only have team meetings before like an important race. Um just because kids don’t like meetings, you know, like they don’t want to hear an adult talking the whole time.

They want to spend time together. But, you know, in our state meet, in the Nike regional meet and at at Nike Nationals, like the the focus was on because we’ve seen it so many times before and even some of the athletes on our teams is that like I hate I hate the whole like balance conversation like try try to keep it even, kill, life needs to be balanced, don’t be too extreme one or the other because you do have to have extremities to get to a race like this. like you can’t always have a balanced life. We talk more about like what’s balance look like in in our expectations and and in the moment because you know last year you know we had we had too much excitement on the girls side sometimes and almost uh projecting their anxiety where they’re screaming and dancing and having like kind of a masked fun like screaming at the top of their lungs to songs and you know we’ve had that with the guys too but it’s more of like hey we don’t we don’t want to take that away from you.

But like with all this other stuff going on, let’s like let’s take it down a level. Let’s like enjoy it as much as we can, but let’s remember like we’re here to race and let’s not go over the top with eating too many cookies at the at the NXN buffet. It’s like eat cookies but don’t eat too much. Like sing but let’s not sing the Lion King at the top of our lungs, right?

like um so it was just more of like the continued message of balance in terms of our emotions because um in a 5,000 meter race, especially for a high school, you just kind of need that energy and you need to experience it. But I think they just knew um they all have different needs. Like some shut their social media down, some check it less, but they they all know like what it meant because there were situations they’ve all experienced that we’ve had one-on-one conversations about that. Um, be at like a 78 so you can be at a 10 for the race.

Um, but we want you to be at a seven, eight, nine to enjoy the experience, but let’s not we don’t need to be at a three, four, five where we’re freaking out and not enjoying it and not present or aware. So, I don’t know if that answers your question, but honestly, it was more of like just helping them enjoy the experience without running the race before the race was run. So my dad growing up we and this is middle school cross country and maybe even I was even younger at times. So a little bit different of a meaning.

I think if I was to go do this it wouldn’t have been that deep cuz I was what 10 years old. Really doesn’t matter. Your running doesn’t matter at that age. But he had this observation which was these kids would bring football and all sorts of different things to occupy their time when they got to the the meet, you know, 2 three hours before their race.

And by the time the race happened, they were playing tag in football that they got to the race and they already basically ran the race on the field by the start line. So my dad was like, if you just stay calm and and wait to exert that energy on race day, you are already at an advantage compared to most kids. for an aspiring athlete listening or coach leading a team of people, how much do you see when you’re at NXN, the pretenders versus the contenders where you know, again, not naming any names or shots, but okay, I can tell the teams that are here to win and the teams that are here because they they just made it and this race is just kind of the the final cherry on top. They know they’re not going to be contenders.

So, there may be, you know, analogy thrown around the football a little too much before the race. Yeah, I mean I mean that’s hard. I think sometimes like we are the team that throws the football around. Um but it but it’s different, right?

It’s like our kids know how to turn a switch where uh most of the season they’re like sprinting around throwing the football and then all of a sudden it’s big race time and they know like oh we can only do walk routes and like be calm throwing it, not like going all out. Um cuz they do like they do that. But it is funny like seeing them transition from I’m going to run an allout route and defend this and jump as high as possible to they’re doing like speed walking routes and like trying to like cut on each other and do spin moves speedw walking and um so we do that stuff but also like they they dial it in. I think like you can you can tell the teams and athletes and we’ve been in this situation and we’ll be back in this situation hopefully uh because it’s just always a cycle.

Um and that’s why it’s a it’s it’s nice when you can go to a meet like NXN multiple years in a row so that it’s fresh in your memory but um you can see the teams that are there to win. Uh you can see it in in how serious maybe they look. Um but they also I don’t feel like and we’ve been guilty of this. They’re not taking it in right.

They’re not they’re not present. They’re like there for one reason and maybe they’re too wound up. Their shoulders are too tight. They’re their eyes are too serious, you know, like um and and they’re not really present with the experience.

Um, and I think it’s a it’s a skill to balance that and I mean even as a coach when you see it happening it it it’s hard to reverse like it’s like the path by someone on the team has already got this momentum going that way and you’re trying to loosen them up but you just know. Um, and then it’s the other way like there are some some boys and girls teams there that are just there for the dance. It’s a party. um it’s the first time they’ve been there and that’s the way it should be, right?

Like it is the funnest weekend in high school sports, right? Out of everything we do and everything our kids have experienced. Um it’s the one weekend they want to be at because it’s so much fun. Um, and and I think we’ve just we’ve luckily figured out how to enjoy both sides because I personally love seeing all of those emotions from all these teams and athletes because it’s like that’s the team that like is showing why we’re all here.

like they’re dancing, they are screaming, they are loving every moment of this and the race didn’t go well, but they’re the ones like still running down the hill face first into the mud after the race even though maybe they got like 17th place. Um, and that’s the joy of the sport and that’s like where you want kids to be. And and then there’s the teams that like came up short and were second, third, fourth and they were too locked in and we’ve been there before, too. So, um I think it just comes down to like a coach knowing his athletes and and athletes knowing each other that like when we run well, this is how it looks and we’re trying to replicate that.

Uh and as long as it’s genuine and not forced, like each team, like you could be the team that celebrates and is having way too much fun and win, or you can be really serious and win. um we’ve just chosen to try to be balanced in our approach and um as coaches I try to stay in the background out of the way like um and when I see something maybe an athlete needs a check-in or some encouragement we step in but really we’re just trying to give them space the whole weekend and um yeah you you see it and you you hear coaches saying like crap like the vibes off on our on our boys or girls and uh you’ll get coaches coming up to you and be like, “Well, your kids look loose and ready to roll.” like you can see it and we you know the coaching community there’s very small and and we compliment each other and um yeah like I’ve I’ve seen teams that won and I’m like go up to that coach and I’m like oh you guys are going to win like no doubt going to the line like you can tell the teams that are like pretty loose and in the right mindset. So, could you tell that about the boys before the race or were you uh Yeah, playing with thoughts in your head could go. Yeah, playing with thoughts in our head like um you know last year like like Thursday when we got there writer Katon, one of our best boys got the stomach flu.

So, like for me it was just like can we get to the line with no like stomach bugs or someone gets sick or whatever it is. But no, the guy the guys just seemed kind of very very loose. They were um having fun every time we were on the bus with a different team. They were getting to know other people.

They were uh enjoying the weekend. And like yeah, I didn’t I didn’t have a lot of concerns on how they were going to compete as long as they were healthy on the line because this is this is a luxury. Like I I call this like a once every 10 year type of team. I think every program gets these like these teams every now and then, once every 10 years or so, where the kids love to compete and you just like you just get to like go warrior every meet with them because like when they step on the line, if if they’re sick or had a bad week, they they just compete their tails off.

And and this boys team like it didn’t matter. They were they they’re warriors, man. They just fight. like they love the competition whether they’re winning or not.

They just love to compete. So, what percent of the coaching do you feel like is done before the championship meet itself? Um 97 98%. Yeah.

At at the meet it’s more of like guys if they don’t have the meal that you wanted or if breakfast if you needed a certain type of fruit or bagel that you’re used to. It’s more of I I don’t know. We become mom and dad, you know? It’s like we’ll we’ll send someone to Whole Foods and get that organic raspberry and croissant that you need before your race or it’s it’s more of those little things like so that they’re not worried about something silly like that.

But I just remember as an athlete that like I needed my bagel and cream cheese and it had to be this kind and um that’s where a teenager’s brain’s at. So we’re like everything coaching wise we’re done. We’re just trying to make sure that they have everything they want. So what was the messaging to the team team camp this year or first practice this year, first team meeting?

You come off of this success last year and as we talked about in our first conversation last year, you know, this program has a a rich history of success spanning way longer than I’ve been alive seemingly. uh and you’re kind of carrying the torch in this next chapter, building this legacy. What were some of the the messages where of course winning is great and it’s an amazing part of the sport, but it can’t be as you’ve talked about with me, it can’t be the only driving reason that you’re doing something. And you go from being the the chaser, which is a luxury, to having the target on your back, which is an entirely different position.

Yeah, that’s tough. Um, every June our boys team and girls team, they get together, we help organize it, facilitate it, but s typically a someone on the a parent on the team host a barbecue. Um, and in June, it’s not all the new kids. It’s not all the year- round kid.

It’s typically like, you know, that their kid the kids that like I’m doing this. This is like who I am right now. It’s important to me. These are my friends.

They set the goals and expectations in June. Um, and really we always just go back to that because, you know, we really want we really want our athletes to feel like it’s their program. Um, that they’re in control. They have the autonomy and the empowerment to uh determine what culture feels like, what what winning uh might look like to them.

Um, what type of result goals that they may want to chase after. Um, so that’s really it’s it’s easier for coaches to to support a goal driven program. Um, especially when they align with kind of like the coaching staff’s competitive drive as well. Um, so in the summer they set that, but then in August it’s like that’s when you come all together and you know we had 139 athletes on our team this year and 57 of them were freshman you know and only like 12 freshman were there all summer.

So like you have 43 new athletes to the high school in the program that like okay now how do we communicate that message to them so that one like they don’t have to be in it to win it that they’re valued. Um but also we’re we’re on this mission and we want you to be a part of it. And you know, the the book The Energy Bus is always something I’ve always enjoyed reading. Um, and I like the first the only thing I had up on our first day for the projection screen was um a cartoon bus and I just I had copied and and pasted different pictures of all the people um that have like motivated me or given me some kind of some guidance on like team culture and training and stuff.

So, like, you know, you got Jim Harbaugh’s driving the bus because uh the Harbaugh brothers. Uh it’s tough as an Ohio State fan to hear, but [laughter] I’ll give it to you. Uh I’m not like let’s just say uh like com like do you know what they always ask their athletes? I don’t know if you’re in tune with the Harbos and their speeches, but No, but maybe maybe.

Yeah. I mean, he always like one thing they say daily is like who could possibly have it better than us? And like the whole team says nobody. Like um and we go over that a lot like so Jim Harbaugh is running driving the bus because nobody has it better than us.

Like and when we say that like at Naiwat like we feel that way. We’re in Boulder. We have the train. We have everything going for us.

Professional athletes train at our track. College athletes come to our track. College teams come to Boulder and train from Naiwat High School. Um the community is all in.

So like like we we want people to know like we’re grateful, right? Like we have this happen stance situation that we get to be at Naiwat and nobody has it better than us. Um but then like we have other people on the bus and we’re just trying to get everyone new to get on the bus in terms of like um you know what our culture is and what we want to achieve and um you know leading with love and um everyone matters and uh don’t be a crab in the bucket. So, like you you can’t be someone that’s constantly pulling other people down.

And if someone’s wanting to like move up um let them move up. Like if you’re having a bad day and you want to only run two miles at 12 minute pace, that’s fine. But don’t don’t take your friend with you who’s like trying to like improve on themselves. So, I think the message is more of like culture and then at the end we’re like, “Oh yeah, by the way, there’s this thing called Nike Cross Nationals.

We’re the defending champs. Um, we need everybody on the bus to to do these things because we can’t get there and there’s probably 15 boys and girls in here that are all in that want to get there and there’s 120 more of you that like we need you on the bus with them because we can’t get there without you. So, um, yeah, I mean, it’s more of like these are our goals. Like, if we and and again, it’s constantly like we’re going to be okay as coaching staff if we don’t achieve these.

These are your goals. So, um, we’re going to come back to them continuously when we’re kind of straying off path and remind you like, hey, remember this goal you guys set? Like, let’s check out all. So, I don’t I kind of ranted there.

I don’t even know if I answered. No, no, no. That’s all really good stuff. Um, I think at a lot of high schools across the US, it’s it’s football and basketball are really the focuses.

Running never gets its own flowers. Does Naiwat like if you if I was a student there, is are you cool if you run or is it is it still very uh like football focused and no one really cares that you won nationals? Um, I think it’s more cool than than most places. Uh, running’s unique, you know, like some pe people, especially teenagers, they don’t they don’t really understand it.

So, even though we’re like 15% of our student body is on the team, um, no, I think I think it’s more of the student body at Naiwat respects what we’re doing. Um, but it’s definitely not cool to run. Um, okay. They know it’s hard.

They know the standard and expectations of the program. Um and and and nonrunners, especially teenagers, like running a mile or two miles is like horrifying. So they like they have no idea what we’re doing, but they respect it. So who did you guys have?

Was it Christian McCaffrey who played for Nwatt? Uh no, football-wise, so Christian McAffrey went to Valor Christian High School on the road. Yeah. Yeah.

Um but big Maccaffrey fan. Go Niners. Uh who you who’ you guys have? I feel like you guys have had some some in terms of on a football team.

Maybe I’m just thinking Christian. Yeah. No, I think No, that’s that’s rough. It’s been it’s been rough.

We’re we’re trying to get there as a as a football program. Might have to might have to transfer sports, bringing 13 state championships. Yeah. No.

Uh no, I would say like our for our most famous athletes, Elise Granny, you know. Wow. So Alise Granny is it goes without saying if you’re listening to this podcast and you don’t know who she is then she’s been on about 10 times I think [laughter] somewhat should be should be. Yeah.

We run by her house like all the time. So um yeah I mean Elise is our is our most famous athlete for sure. You guys need to make it your slogan like make running cool again uh at Naiwa High School the cool program. You guys are winning all the stuff.

to be it’s cool to come to Naiwat and run like kids from other high schools and colleges and like so in that terms like in the running world yeah NWAT is cool I just never understand yes we’re we’re skinny scrawny kids who put one foot in front of the other in in short clothing but I never understand why in our sport like if you win a state championship but the other sports are are are trash I’m speaking very specifically from my experience growing up in like the the kids still wouldn’t care. It’s like, “Oh, you’re a runner.” And it’s like, “No, but we won the state championship.” Like, that’s that’s cool. Um, so, but I will say this, and I’m sure you could say this from a coaching perspective, you probably never had a soccer kid come over to running who fell in love with running who then didn’t think it was it was cool. Yeah.

I mean, we we have some soccer kids right now that I mean, hopefully my soccer coach isn’t listening to this, but um like they’re all in. They they played they love soccer and and uh they did track last spring as like I need to stay in shape and honestly it’s it’s more of it’s more the personality of the runner that they find themselves gravitating to. So those soccer players are like well these kids are like doing good in school is cool. Like showing up and working your tail off is cool.

like trying to accomplish things and try hard is cool. So like there’s some kids that we sometimes get because you know the way we operate our program that like oh Hunter Robbie just signed with Duke. I want to go to a school like Duke or at least have the chance to be a part of that. Um, and I mean that’s a rare, but like I think they just fall in love with like the culture of the runner, you know, like the the personality of the runner, and they’re like, “Oh, I’m like that, and I want to be around people like that.” Um, so yeah, I mean, the soccer players we get do fall in love with the sport.

Yeah. And they say it’s cool. Would you say uh again your program is a little more established so unlike my super small team in high school, you probably aren’t looking for people to necessarily fill 4×8 spots, but have you experienced the the soccer to 4×8 pipeline? I feel like soccer players, there’s something about them and the competitive nature of the 4×8 and it’s just short enough that you don’t need a full year of base training.

Have Have you seen that? Oh yeah, all the time. like we it’s been it’s been a little bit, but we always have had on our state championship teams. Um a soccer player or two represented in our 4×8 um yeah, no 100% soccer to 4×8 is a pipeline.

You’re missing out on it if you’re not embracing kids doing club soccer two, three times a week and coming to one or two practices to run. They can run a they can run an 800. Absolutely. Yeah.

Staying with the football analogies and driving about three hours south to the better school that just won the national championship, the Ohio State University. Um, you ever hear of uh Ryan Day? So, Ohio State last year going in hot squad, $20 million roster. People are saying they lose to Oregon, then they lose to Michigan.

Michigan plants the flag. Team has an internal team meeting. um they figure out their stuff and then they go on um debatably the greatest playoff run we’ve ever seen. They destroy every team in their path.

Um quite remarkable to to see them do that. But even with that, the new team took down I think almost all of their championship memorabilia and banners because they felt like they had to earn their own success this year. My relation to you is how much of a mindset did your team have of, okay, last year was great. We loved it.

It was fun, but this year’s a new season and we got to earn our own success in 2025. I think the athletes definitely felt that way. Um, they wanted to like do it better and do it their own way. Um, being mindful and respect of the legacy of everyone before them.

Uh but they wanted to make their own legacy. Uh we we did not tear down the banners or tear down the trophy though. Like we we made sure everybody walked by that NXN trophy. The first thing that anyone that comes to Naiwat High School saw for a year uh when you walk in the door was that NXN trophy.

So um we’re proud of that. Our school and our community is proud of it. Our parents are proud of it. Uh our kids like smile every time they see it.

Uh this group again just going back to like the leadership we had. They just they they could do both, right? Like they wanted all the recognition and they’re proud of that, but they also were like, “Let’s go do something that’s never been done before or at least try to do something that’s never been done before.” Um join, you know, Louden Valley, join uh Newberry Park with the back-to-back titles on the guy’s side and see if we can score less points. That was that was part of their goals for sure.

Yeah. Doesn’t sound like you were too surprised by the win. Were you surprised by 61 points? Uh yeah.

I mean that mean things can go so many different ways. Um knowing Mark and Joan Hunter with Lowden Valley and they and their teams that they had and they didn’t score that low. uh knowing you know the Newberry Park team and the culture and uh coach Braznes and Brazen and what like the Youngs and Solomons and everyone that ran there. It’s like that is impressive.

So for us it’s just like yeah let’s chase it. Anything can happen. And um I think those coaches and those teams would say they could have scored lower uh if certain things would have went their way but yeah we we could have probably scored 30 points lower lower as well. Um, but that’s fine.

Like the win’s all that that matters and to get the record. Um, like definitely got got a little extra celebration out of our boys. They were they’re proud and they should be. Yeah.

To your point, uh, a kid from Naiwat walking into high school seeing the trophy will know that you guys won. They don’t they probably won’t know or care how many points you scored. So, uh, winning is what matters at the end of the day. Um, I was going to ask a question.

Oh, in regards to like qualifying, you’ve been a part of the sport for quite some time. Were you quite impressed by your region specifically even individually like Oliver, Jackson, Johannes? I feel like from a regional perspective, uh it was kind of nationals before nationals. Obviously that course is always you know butter and way different than Glendeir but competition-wise it seems like even within the state itself Oliver going 1448 on a course that uh Parker Wolf ran I [snorts] think 1510 in high school.

Uh it’s just crazy the level that we’re getting at and specifically in your region. Yeah, I think I think the Southwest region currently has the the best preparation meet for NXN. Um the amount of competition at our regional. I mean, there’s a lot of teams and individuals [cough] that if they were in another region would be at NXN and in ways it’s more competitive than NXN.

So, uh, if you can survive the Nike Cross regional, um, you can perform better at NXN than than at the individ at the regional because a lot of those individuals at NXN don’t count in the team score. So, uh, it’s easier to score less at NXN than it is at NXR. Um, so yeah, we we love we love how hard our region is and we know if we go we’re one of the best teams in the nation. So it’s great prep and yeah, this year like yeah, all those names you said, Jackson, Johannes, Oliver, um, you know, the list goes on and on um, of all those boys and there’s some kids, you know, Aiden Aiden Laroo had a had a rough go this year.

he was top, you know, 15 at NXN last year and had an injury and he’s also in that region and got left home. So, there’s there’s countless kids that are are pretty amazing. You know, there was I think uh Ben Ben Adams um uh ran 403 in the mile and he was 16th at NXR. So, it’s it’s Yeah, I know.

It’s like one of the best runners in the country is that like was going to be sitting at home. So yeah, even last year um what’s his name? He’s from Tennessee. Jack Bowen, I think he’s been on the podcast before, so I should know.

I know he for UNCC now. I think he plays like 50th um at NR Midwest. And then he went on to qualify for Foot Locker and was one of the the guys like leading the race. So, it’s just you gota in high school it’s crazy.

You got to get it done at debatably bigger and bigger stages than you do at any other level. I we don’t have if you’re doing the NXN Foot Lock or no NXN Brooks cross country championship kind of roulette, you got to go through more qualifying stuff than nearly any other stage. And it’s at a level where you probably think things matter way more than they actually do. And that’s where I think that the traits and attributes you gain from the sport are are are hard to beat.

That’s how you learn how to deal with pressure, with stress, with expectation, with goal setting because you have to confront it on a week-toeek level. Yeah. And it is brutal. Rocco, one of our boys did the the gauntlet.

um you know, NXR and then Midwest, Brooks, NXN, San Diego, and it was a probably the best thing for him long term because of the roller coaster of, you know, for various reasons, not having a good race in Arizona, getting 10th and getting in to Brooks Championships, and then going to NXN and not performing to what he’s capable of and then coming back the next week and taking ninth in San Diego um when he was like not even 150th at NXN. uh you couldn’t you couldn’t like it I feel as a coach that’s hard for an athlete to experience but life skill-wise like he is ready for anything now like he knows like week to week things can change this is what I need to do this is how I need to prepare so yeah like there is it is it’s a like you said could not prepare you better for life if you succeed in that four four weekend situation. Yeah. Speaking of some of that, how do you, you know, you’ve been in the sport for quite some time.

How have you navigated some of the differences, some of the challenges? One, from a recruiting standpoint with all the changes that have come to the NCAA, so maybe being recruited younger and with more expectation because they’re more international recruits. So, US standards are a little more difficult and harder to achieve. And then we have, you know, NIL’s uh both explicit deals from companies, but also I don’t know if you saw Diodora announce this week that they’re going to give a $40,000 NIL deal to a high schooler breaks four minutes or 435 in the mile in their spike.

And then you have, you know, national championships seemingly changing every year in San Diego with new sponsors and new formats and golden tickets and like it’s a lot for a high schooler to digest. I imagine it’s a lot for a coach who’s been in the sport to understand. What’s your kind of perspective on everything? Yeah, it’s it’s crazy right now.

And I think if you’re, you know, you graduated last year, graduating this year, graduating next year, um it’s probably the hardest time to exist as a a high school athlete trying to go on to the next level because it’s really confusing. Um, most of these programs, these coaches are trying to keep their job. Um, and they have to play by the rule book, which allows them to do things they haven’t been able to do before. And who’s left out?

Like the developmental American high school runner, right? Like there’s so many athletes that I know of uh not just like at Naiwat but other schools and in other coaches I talked to other parents from other schools I talked to like they’re getting it’s crickets. It is nothing. They are phenomenal runners who’ve ran fast who would have been fullright scholarships at power for four programs before that aren’t even getting replies from college coaches in the college coaches or they have automatic replies that like here’s our standards if you can’t qualify for the track regional um now we’re not going to be recruiting you.

Um, so I think right now like as a a prospective collegiate athlete, you really you really have to change your rationality because what like a 450 455 girl and previously could have been recruited by anyone in the nation. They’re not sniffing at you if you’re not running like 440 442 because they can go to the portal or they can go internationally and get these kids that are going to help their programs right now. And I don’t know how sustainable it is or what the rule changes might be in 3 to 5 years, but it’s pretty hard I think for high school kids right now because their dreams are being crushed by the transfer portal and their dreams are being crushed by NIL deals and international athletes. And I don’t even know if these college coaches would say this is the best thing for the sport, but they do have a job and that’s their job’s to win and they got to get a paycheck.

Um, so I get I get it, but at the same time it’s it’s heartbreaking for me to have kids who uh graduate and don’t go on to run in college because they won’t lower their standards and expectations. And I think the message for like a current high school athlete is like you got to go where you wanted, right? And if you’re not getting responses from coaches, like no response is a response. They don’t want you.

Like if they’re not replying to you, like they don’t want you. And we’ve we have athletes even this season that were not getting messages until they ran a race. Now all of a sudden these coaches want you. So, it’s it’s conflicting to like our constant message to these kids that they’re not a result when the college program right now is set up to say that like you only matter if you run a result.

So, uh it’s it’s hard. It’s really hard and and it’s just kind of getting hopefully high school kids can just go where they want to and there’s plenty of places to go run and you can develop and if you don’t like your experience there like then you jump in the portal and go where you want to go but like yeah it’s it’s hard I don’t know I’m ranting but it’s it’s hard for current high school kids to want to go on to college and compete right now. I could rant about this all day, so uh you’re in you’re in fine company. I mean, it’s just it’s it’s uh what I say is people are only as good as their incentives.

Uh college coaches are incentivized to win from their athletic directors um almost at all costs, which I think is just not good for the sport or for society. And they care about themselves and their incentives, which is putting food on the table for their families and being uh validated and accepted and considered successful. [snorts] And heck, if you can find a 58minute half marathoner from Kenya, you’re never going to look at a 4-minute mileer from the US. It’s just it’s not going to add up.

So, I am very bold on my podcast because it’s my podcast. No one pays me to say anything, which is uh lovely freedom. And NCAA is an American system. I think international athletes um we should always include, always welcome.

But I think when it starts to take away from what the NCAA is meant to be, which is in my opinion, it’s schools and academics. And then we happen to have these quote unquote clubs that are sports that we do off of them. We’ve become athlete students and not student athletes. And it’s coming at the expense of American kids, which is the NCAA is an American institution.

Um, so I don’t know uh what lawmaker needs to get involved, but I uh I fear Josh Kerr said this to me in an interview, and I’m curious how you think about this as a coach. Like Josh Kerr wouldn’t have a spot on any any D1 team, maybe even D2 team. Um, and to to get to a D1 team, he would have had to train so hard that he wouldn’t have anything left in college or professional. So, it’s this tough position where high school coaches, high schoolers are kind of being forced to say, well, if your goal is to run at the next level, which is a meaningful goal.

Well, I might have to sacrifice your longevity to make this goal happen. And that’s just also a tricky position to be in. Yeah. There’s a price you pay, right?

like and and teenagers shouldn’t have to be paying that price because it could look one one way now but in five years to Josh’s point is would Josh still be running if he had to pay the price in high school to get where he wanted to be in college? And shout out to coach Franklin at New Mexico who’s now at Louisville for bringing Josh and coaching Josh when he was at New Mexico. But uh um yeah, like it’s crazy to think that in this day and age a Josh Kerr wouldn’t be getting recruited by these colleges. Like that’s wild.

And just like the international athlete thing and just going back to it, I think it’s um you everything. I agree with what you’re saying. Um, when I was in college, I had 28-year-old teammates and I didn’t know as a 19-year-old like what that meant, you know? And every day I’m trying to train with them.

Every day I’m trying to beat them. And in my mind, I’m like, “Oh, wait. These guys have 10 years of 100 mile weeks on [snorts] me. Like, I shouldn’t be trying to train with them and I shouldn’t trying to be beating them.” And when I was losing, I couldn’t understand why.

And you know, like when you look at some of our young athletes succeeding, you know, at NCAA cross country in a 10K and they got 25 to 30 year olds beating them. It’s more of an age thing for me that that really frustrates me that like it’s not really fair um to you you couldn’t have a 19-year-old football player going against a 32-year-old defensive end. he’s just gonna pancake a tackle because he’s got 100 pounds and 12 years of strength on him. Like it’s just not fair.

Like it’s that we got adults playing pee-wee league and um hopefully that all gets fixed. Like I don’t know all the nuances and the rules and and and everything and like I get why college coaches are doing what they’re doing but it is it is at the disservice of our youth and our development of American amateur sports because we have international athletes in these high schools too that are affected by it. you know, like we have athletes at Naiwat that are from different countries that move to Boulder because we live in Boulder and it’s a beautiful place, but um you know, we’ve had kids from Italy and Czech Republic and other places that this is now affecting them and their potential to run in college because 25 year old internationals from their country are coming and taking spots. So, anyways, we could rant like you said.

Yeah. Yeah. Someone’s going to say, “Oh, you said but Josh is international.” And I would say, “Yeah, he is.” and he’s a good example of at the time I was so young when I watched this race. He was a freshman and he upset Edward Chzarak in the most stunning fashion indoor mile.

It was unheard of to me that we had a kid from a different country in the NCAA when I was watching that meet as a kid on ESPNU or whatever it was on back in the day. Yeah. Now my issue is that’s the nor that’s the norm. It’s almost it’s almost weird if you see an American winning something and that’s where it’s like whose system is this now?

I think the the stat was there were only five people in the top 30 at NCAA cross that that were Americans. And it’s like this isn’t an American system anymore. And uh it’s becoming um I love this analogy I came up with. Uh the NCAA should be what double A NCAA to professional running should be what the double A to the MLB is.

Um, it should be a developmental system, but we’ve turned it into this professional system where Rocky Hansen can’t even win the NCAA cross meet, but somehow he almost pulled off winning the whole US cross country meet with crazy guys like Parker Wolf and Nico Young and Graham Blanks. So, when that sort of stuff is happening, it’s like, okay, we’re making the NCAA a professional sports league. And I also wonder the extent to which that’s impacting their academic lives, their mental health when the expectations, the pressure is that high and they know they’re so replaceable. And the thing that um this athlete I had the conversation with who who we had the kind of MLB analogy with, he made a good point and he wasn’t naming uh coaches, but he said there are some coaches who uh you know abuse the privilege of of international athletes where these athletes aren’t they’re great runners but in every other aspect they’re not in a place to be in the states because they don’t understand it.

They don’t have the support. they they can’t do academics at a lot of these schools. And that is just blatant only caring about the result, which does not go in line with the spirit of the NCAA, which is these are institutions where you get a degree and you happen to run, right? As much as we might want to think that it’s all about the running, it it’s not, you know.

No. Yeah, man. It’s we’re in a weird time. It’s like the wild west.

And I’m hopeful in 2 to 5 years if we are having a conversation some boundaries and rules have changed. So me too, man. Me too. Speaking of that, and I’m sure you’ll say no after all the craziness we just talked about.

You’ve been so successful at the high school level, won a couple national championships, more state championships than I could count. Uh have you ever thought about going going to the next level, gotten phone calls? What what what’s your mindset out with your journey in the sport and what you want to do with your legacy? Yeah.

Um yeah, like I truly believe nobody has it better than us, man. Boulder Boulder, every time I come back from Boulder, from wherever I go, I’m I’m I love living here. Um, even though it’s way too much money for a teacher to live, uh, I think I think I just want to continue making the the sport of running better, you know, and and I try to stay present with where I’m at. Um, and look for ways to grow as as a coach and a human.

Um, and keep growing that way. But yeah, I think that the legacy and and what I want to do in Boulder is continue to to make it a community, make it a place people want to be at. Um, make it somewhere where people feel welcome and, uh, they can do a workout and like I’ve I’ve told you this stuff before and and go down to Naiwat Market or and get get breakfast or go to Nwatt Wheelhouse and grab a beer. Um, I I just want to continue to like let people know that there’s places and there’s other places that they can go.

They’re welcome. Uh, running is cool. Uh, there is a community um out there and and yeah, like I just want to keep keep doing what we’re doing and and maybe change the opinion of of any people out there that maybe are are NWAT haters because we want to love everyone. [laughter] I don’t know if that answered your question exactly.

Let me ask you this bluntly. If the right if the right program called would you would you consider? Yeah, absolutely. Um I I hate saying that out loud because like I love our kids.

I love our parents. I love my admin team. I love the coaches I work with. Uh I am happy and content as I’ve ever been.

Uh the right Yeah. If the right program collegiantly was like, “Hey, would you consider this opportunity?” Um, absolutely. Like I would consider it it’s an opportunity to to grow. It’s an opportunity to change and chase different things and it’s an opportunity to um continue to make running cool and create a community somewhere else and stick to my morals and ethics and and my why and yeah abs.

Yeah, man. I would jump on it. How much do you view your profession? um uh or we could say hobby as a profession, right?

Most high school cross country coaches or coaches in general are are viewed as kind of volunteers who who try their best and they show up and they they put the guidelines and lay down the law and try to develop good people through sport. You do all those things, but you also have illustrated that you can win, you can get it done. You’re one of the greatest coaches at the high school level in the sport. And I imagine that uh there’s a level of being a student of the sport where you you wonder and you question, oh, could I get it done at this level?

Because I talked to people like Coach Milt and that was kind of the dilemma he was going through or this was coach Smith, right? He maxed out at NAU. What more can you do than win five and six years and then he thought, can I do this at the pro level? He could get it done at the pro level.

So, uh how much do you ponder those questions and and how much of the sport do you follow? uh whether it’s college coaches, pro coaches, athletes, etc. Yeah, I’m I’m often I I think if people really knew me and how much I didn’t know about running, they would know I’m an impostor. Um so yeah, I’m always like, how much of an imposttor would I be at the next level?

Uh and I would love the challenge of of finding that out. Um I I follow humans that are doing great things, right? That I that are similar beliefs and similar like-minded views. Um so I’m not like necessarily a student of the sport in the terms of science.

I’m not like a I’m going to dive in and do all this research um and figure out like how the science of the sports works. Uh I’m heavily uh educated in psychology and sociology and fascinated by how the brain affects human behavior and how your social environment affects human behavior. Um and so for me, I like latching on to the people that I feel like are doing it right and and know what they’re talking about and I geek out on say someone like Dr. Jeff Messer who’s coached, you know, the likes of Danny Jones and Jojo Jordan and uh has had success everywhere he’s gone.

He just like he’s at Sou Falls now and Sou Falls just had two NXN teams qualify. He’s just always and he’s a a volunteer coach there. But he’s someone that is the smart he’s probably the smartest human being I’ve ever met or listened to. So, like if I can go to a running clinic and listen to him and learn from him, I’m going to do it.

If there’s a podcast with him on it, I’m going to listen to it. Steve Magnus. So, uh, and then on the other side, like, yeah, when when you have Mike Smith and Dominic, when you have Meltenberg and you have all these coaches that like I aspire to learn from, um, I’m listening to those podcasts, you know, like I’m I’m growing in that way. like there’s just people that I I respect um and I will just follow and I will try to learn what I can based on what they’re sharing even though it’s in a limited capacity and there’s still a lot of secrets and in what they’re not sharing but um yeah I love your podcast workout videos all that stuff I’m I’m diving in and but I am not someone that’s going to research papers on uh threshold and sprinting and V2.

I’m just like falling asleep just reading two sentences and that stuff. So, uh yeah, I I love following the sport and growing from other people that are just crushing it. So, well, I appreciate you listening and the support. I got to ask, did you uh have the chance to listen to to Dayan?

That was that was awesome getting that chance. He’s so down. I have a a running list of over the next two weeks I’m going to get caught up on podcasts. I have not I have not got to listen to Dayan’s.

Oh, you’ll love it. He was so loose. was I mean I just I I think a problem we have in society way outside of the sport is you see these big names and you kind of assume they might be a little more uptight or cuz Dayton takes care of his business, handles his business very well and he was so so loose chilling in his backyard and just kicking it back and that’s what I always appreciate with guests is when you don’t feel like they’re super time because that infects how they and he was just and that’s kind of he’s so busy I thought that’s how it would be and he was so laidback but I think appreciate it cuz I even open up that conversation. We talk about a lot of family dynamics for like 10 minutes.

You know, what do you talk about at the dinner table? How do you deal with having two prodigies? I’m sure your name dropped at some point, so you’ll have to listen to that. But, um, speaking of time, coming up on time here.

Uh, go ahead. No, I was just say I I definitely take advant granted Dayan uh and Kayn and the Ritz and Hinds because I see him daily, you know, like I can go have coffee with Dayan. Um, I can like I don’t know. They’re they’re the first ones in the to the track to shovel lane one and eight at Nwatt High School with me like so yeah.

Yeah, I I will listen to it and I’m probably going to enjoy it. So yeah, amazing people. Um, coming up on time here. So final final series question.

Someone listen aspires to take their team or individually make it to NXN or if they’re a coach lead their team to NXN. What’s uh what’s the number one what’s the winning formula? What’s the What’s the If you had to boil it down to one thing, what should people be thinking coming out of this conversation? Yeah.

I mean, the f the first thing you got to do, and we talked about it a little bit earlier, is like running’s got to be kind of cool. Um, I think as a coach, you can really screw this up. Like, you gota you got to let go of control. We’re teaching teenagers um how to enjoy something that’s not really like all that enjoyable at first.

Um, and and when you’re starting from ground zero, we like at Naiwat now, I get kids, they’re there, they want to run, but 10 years ago, like you’re just trying to get them to fall in love with the sport, right? Um, and when you’re projecting like your beliefs and your values constantly on them and not meeting them halfway and not letting them really like feel like they’re empowered to be the face of the program, like for me, it really turned around when uh the athletes were making the goals and when I when I stopped being so strict on expectations that they have to be there all the time. Um, it’s more of like you got to just be very patient and you got to create an open and welcoming environment. You got to like go off script and when they’re having fun just like let them have fun.

You know, we our warm-up takes an hour every day and it drives me crazy because it’s like a 10-minute routine, but the kids are being social. They take 25 minutes to go to the bathroom. Uh, that is part of the culture they like. it’s like a a slow transition from academics to to working out and we talk about like is that something we want to change as a team and they’re like yeah let’s change that but then like they don’t change it and I’m like okay are you guys cool with us like having a three-hour practice because it takes you an hour and 20 minutes to warm up like yeah that’s fine so um you really just it’s kids got to be the focus and they got to do it their way more than ever this generation um the more you try to push them to the way maybe you did it, the the more they’re going to pull away from that.

So, you really got to find like how they want to do it. And it’s going to be different everywhere you go. But at NWAT, um we are social for two out of three hours of every practice. And I don’t get home until 7:30, 8:00 at night because of it.

But, um that’s just the way it is. Like they they want to be social and they want it to be social. So, we do that and then they’re available mentally to like run really hard when they need to. So, I think you just really got to let it let it be the kids program.

Learn what the culture is like in your community. Learn what the culture is in your building, what kind of support you have from your admin team. You got to get a few kids to buy in. Um, and you got to give kids autonomy to to come and go as they please.

Uh, and you got to find a way to hold them accountable. um when given autonomy without like getting upset with them. Like it’s just kind of like you’re going to have opportunities in naturally in races and in workouts to be like well that’s why we don’t take four weeks off in December. Like like you know like they got to live it.

They got to fail on their own terms and you just got to support them unconditionally. And then when you get the ball going, then it’s like, hey, so do we do we want to chase after this NXN thing and this is what it’s going to take and are you guys ready to give it uh your all because state ends October 31st and NXN is five weeks later and if halfway through October you can’t wait for state to be done because you want to be done training, like we’re never going to get there. Like we we now got to think like we’re racing the first weekend of December. So in October, like we’re just getting started.

So when most teams are winding down and almost mentally checked out, uh we are winding up and getting ready to go. So yeah, amazing. Great words to close us out on a fun note. Closing us out for real here.

We are six days away from Christmas and uh this one will probably come out right before Christmas. So get in the holiday spirit. Uh favorite Christmas song, favorite Christmas movie. Oh, I think, and this is probably not going to be a popular opinion, but uh Last Christmas, Wham.

Um the kids right now just wanted on repeat at the school. Uh even though it’s a sad song, it’s got a good little beat to it. And if you watch the video, you’ll just laugh. Nostalgia all the way.

And then uh for me, Christmas Vacation is like Uncle Eddie and uh everything about that movie just makes me laugh every time. So, a classic. Well, Coach Kelly, thanks for being so generous with your time, your wisdom, your insights. Always appreciate it.

Never take it for granted. Congrats on winning back-to-back titles. Enjoy the rest. Enjoy the break.

And uh we we’ll run it back again soon. Appreciate you. Fan of yours, fan of the program, and uh excited to see all the things you guys continue to accomplish. Yeah, thank you.

Appreciate it. Same to you, man. Keep it up.